Curse

Hibou · Sep 17, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Hi everyone,

I just finished writing a little guide to help players who play in PUG. (PvE)

I would really like to get some comments and suggestion on it.

http://hibou.qc.ca/academy

Thanks

Warrior1986 · Sep 17, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

My sarcasm radar is broken so I'm not sure, but the red portions are ment to be the joke and the black text is the actual help?

ubermancer · Sep 18, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Mr.Wammo knows no such thing as an "Aggro Circle"... He only has his Holy Circle of Power which warns foes of his incoming wrath.

Lynxius · Sep 18, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Interesting Guide.

Most of the things there were things that I learned by myself over the last 15 months, but this could be very good for new players, who initially miss most of the basic concepts explained here.

The wammo jokes werent bad, but you shouldnt be generalizing w/mo.
After all, a warrior can just be wamo if he just had rebirth in mind, or simply he could not even be using any skills of the secondary class, but thats another subject.

Good Guide.

Tainek · Sep 18, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Good Job, i'll be showing it to my girlfreind who started yesterday

Pick Me · Sep 18, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Interesting guide. I think it covers the basics of playing (regardless of PUG or not). Seems very good for those new to the game.

Good going.

Hibou · Sep 18, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynxius Pardonus

The wammo jokes werent bad, but you shouldnt be generalizing w/mo.
After all, a warrior can just be wamo if he just had rebirth in mind, or simply he could not even be using any skills of the secondary class, but thats another subject.
Good Guide.

Agreed. And just to make myself perfectly clear : not every W/Mo is a Wammo and there are other play styles that are clearly Wammo (tanking assassins, Kilroy Stonekin, Dunham...

).

One of my character is, in fact, a Warrior/Monk, and the only monk skill I use is rebirth. But it's just a fact of life that I can find a group much faster when I'm a "W/anything else than Mo".

bigwig · Sep 18, 2006, 02:41 PM // 14:41

You claim most missions can be done with one dedicated healer if everyone else brings self heals.

Thats a set up for disaster with pugs. You can't count on them to heal themselves. I'd never go anywhere in a *pug* with only one healer.

Also when i'm forming a pug, i make sure i know specifically what type of builds i want in my group. And then i specifically advertise in local chat for those builds. This works much better for me than just taking anybody along with me.

Also you make it sound like you don't have to bring a res with you if you're doing something with your guild or an organized group. My guildies would kill me if i didn't bring a res.

Hibou · Sep 18, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

You claim most missions can be done with one dedicated healer if everyone else brings self heals.

Thats a set up for disaster with pugs. You can't count on them to heal themselves. I'd never go anywhere in a *pug* with only one healer.

I stand by my claim. I'm just tired of seeing "GLF 2 monks (6/8)" everywhere I go... I mean, if there are no monks around, adapt !

I exprienced quite to opposite of what you said. Times when we had a single monk, it helped gather a better group because most Wammo won't join a team if there are not, at LEAST, 2 monks in it.

Also, when players are forced to heal themselves, they usually play much better. The casters won't stand unmoving while getting hammered by 3 foes (draining the healer's energy pool like they usually do). The party will also have more fire power and so, will kill faster. Globaly, every player feels less "invincible" which is, in my opinion, a Good Thing (tm).

PUGs don't fail because they lack a monk, they fail because they don't focus fire and don't lure mobs properly.

But again, no two pugs are the same...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

Also when i'm forming a pug, i make sure i know specifically what type of builds i want in my group. And then i specifically advertise in local chat for those builds. This works much better for me than just taking anybody along with me.

Everybody has a different approach to the game. I respect yours. But my view is that we have thousands of possible builds and just rejecting a player from your team because he is not using one of the 5-6 holy FOTM builds is ... (I can't find a word for this)

Remember that in this game, skill is more important than skills. Too many times have I've seen an MM who can't stay away from harm and loose control of its undead army at the worst possible times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

Also you make it sound like you don't have to bring a res with you if you're doing something with your guild or an organized group. My guildies would kill me if i didn't bring a res.

Sorry, I never said that. My guide is strictly about PUGs. For the record, I believe that in PvE, almost all builds can accomodate a Resurrection skill and should do so. Only exception I have met so far were rangers specializing in BeastMastery.

ubermancer · Sep 18, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Im an ass when I monk. I will tell people that if they dont do exactly what I say I wont heal them. I will force my PUG (by way of witholding my presence) to do Temple of Strength before the other quests, because I like that one.

Its a good thing that despite being vindictive and impatient that Im competent. Elsewise I might die when my Monk tanks.

Gigashadow · Sep 18, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

I agree it's certainly always funny when you a group advertising "6/8, just need 2 monks and we go!!". 2 monks, is that all, enjoy your wait! They usually won't be amenable to bringing a hench monk either.

For the guy who said he'd leave if he was a single monk with 7 warriors. Are you kidding? As a monk I'd love a group like that. Warriors tear stuff to pieces so fast it isn't even funny (well, as long as they aren't complete nubs with skill bars full of heal spells and defensive stances).

Munanko Roha · Sep 19, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

Also you make it sound like you don't have to bring a res with you if you're doing something with your guild or an organized group. My guildies would kill me if i didn't bring a res.

It depends from what you are doing.

Personally, when playing with my guildies, I will take a ress only if I'm making FoW, UW, maybe Raisu Palace and Hell's Precipice, nowhere else.

PVE is not PVP, it's really easy if you know how to move, I usually prefer to max out my usefulness for the group in different ways than taking a ress since I won't die anyway.

When playing with PuGs it's a different matter obviously, a ress, preferably an hard one is the first skill to take...

Munanko Roha · Sep 19, 2006, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

Im an ass when I monk. I will tell people that if they dont do exactly what I say I wont heal them. I will force my PUG (by way of witholding my presence) to do Temple of Strength before the other quests, because I like that one.

Its a good thing that despite being vindictive and impatient that Im competent. Elsewise I might die when my Monk tanks.

Understand the first part, don't like the second; it's a selfish way of playing.

I will accept a team agreement for deciding which quest will be done first, not a one man decision, even if it comes from the most competent monk playing GW; if I'm not pvping I can withstand the absence of a great monk if the rest of my team is good.

bigwig · Sep 19, 2006, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibou

I stand by my claim. I'm just tired of seeing "GLF 2 monks (6/8)" everywhere I go... I mean, if there are no monks around, adapt !

I exprienced quite to opposite of what you said. Times when we had a single monk, it helped gather a better group because most Wammo won't join a team if there are not, at LEAST, 2 monks in it.

Also, when players are forced to heal themselves, they usually play much better. The casters won't stand unmoving while getting hammered by 3 foes (draining the healer's energy pool like they usually do). The party will also have more fire power and so, will kill faster. Globaly, every player feels less "invincible" which is, in my opinion, a Good Thing (tm).

PUGs don't fail because they lack a monk, they fail because they don't focus fire and don't lure mobs properly.

But again, no two pugs are the same...

Everybody has a different approach to the game. I respect yours. But my view is that we have thousands of possible builds and just rejecting a player from your team because he is not using one of the 5-6 holy FOTM builds is ... (I can't find a word for this)

Remember that in this game, skill is more important than skills. Too many times have I've seen an MM who can't stay away from harm and loose control of its undead army at the worst possible times.

Sorry, I never said that. My guide is strictly about PUGs. For the record, I believe that in PvE, almost all builds can accomodate a Resurrection skill and should do so. Only exception I have met so far were rangers specializing in BeastMastery.

Going with two monks is a simple safety net, it just makes sense when you're grouping with people you don't know. It can work but your chances of success tumble. If you can't find 2 monks, take a hench or come back later.

Theres no rejection in my method, i'm looking for something specific. Its nothing personal, if they fit the bill they're in. For the record theres room for plenty of non-fotm builds in any pug i form.

you should really consider how giving unorthodox advice on pugs, with even the slightest deviation from the norm, will disrupt your pug forming. It is *hard* to convince a pug to not go with 2 monks, or anything odd. It might not be worth the aggravation. People will leave that group at the drop of a hat. With pugs easiest is best.

Finally i didn't say you said that. I said "you make it sound like..."
You should reword it so that you don't give the wrong impression.

bigwig · Sep 19, 2006, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munanko Roha

It depends from what you are doing.

Personally, when playing with my guildies, I will take a ress only if I'm making FoW, UW, maybe Raisu Palace and Hell's Precipice, nowhere else.

PVE is not PVP, it's really easy if you know how to move, I usually prefer to max out my usefulness for the group in different ways than taking a ress since I won't die anyway.

When playing with PuGs it's a different matter obviously, a ress, preferably an hard one is the first skill to take...

I agree with some of this. No its not entirely necessary in the easier places. But personally, 7 skills is enough to make myself useful without adding an 8th to replace a res. Usually i think of it as a form of energy management. But i guess thats just subjective.

ShaneOfMach · Oct 04, 2006, 04:53 AM // 04:53

For me, when i start a PuG group, i have a set of builds needed:

Two tanks (that don't rush)
must bring armor boosting skills and stances, damage is not important. Also, they must protect the squishies with shouts like Watch Yourself and Shields Up

Two healers
one monk or ritualist that maintains health on the party while the other spike heals

1 interrupter
preferably a ranger or a domination mesmer

1 degen/conditioner
a blood necro, illusion mesmer, and condition ranger fit this role quite well

2 AoE/massive damage dealers
this category can range from spiteful spirit necros, minion masters, elementalists, and possibly assassins.

some notes:

Rangers/warriors must bring a hard ressurection skill and are responsible for ressurecting fallen party members ASAP. I tend to not let monks/casters res due to their high demand for energy.

Avoid Barrage rangers, since their damage is pathetic compared to those sepcialized for AoE damage (MM's, Spiteful Spirit, and nukers)

Warriors who are extremely impatient before the mission/quest begins should be kicked immediately

Check the builds of everyone you invite, and correct them if they are really absurd

Many of these roles can be substited due to the lack of players in some areas, so be sure to keep that in mind.

Gedrand · Oct 04, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

When entering a large/challenging mission that I can't do with henchmen or whichever couple of friends are online, I go by a few guidelines to start a group.

First, anyone with a stupid name, horrendous spelling and grammar, or extreme impatience goes out right at the start. I've found that people with any of these qualities usually just aren't skillful enough to be worth bringing along. They generally end up being a drain on the monk, or a warrior that just hacks away without using any attack or defensive skills and doesn't know how to hold aggro, or they're a caster that just wands things, and the like.

I'll also try to engage everyone in some conversation for a few minutes before leaving. Sometimes unpleasant qualities and personalties will emerge that make the filtering process easier. The end result is worth taking a few minutes to ensure quality control.

Joining groups with 'LFG' doesn't have a high success rate for me. I've just found that the overwhelming majority of people in pick up groups are, well, underwhelming!

I know this may not sound very accommodating, but it works. *laugh*

figliaperduta · Oct 06, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

There are some missions and quests where just about everyone wipes--Villainy of Galrath, for example. You start out in gentle Nebo Terrace. Nice 11s, a few 13s, alright, here's one 17 in with a group of 13s. Not bad, right?

Also not for long. You'll soon hit the Black Curtain, where you've got patrols SCREAMING down, composed entirely of 17-20s. You've got poisonous swamp water. And they always seem to know which ones are the Monks, too--you can barely drag them away.

Unless your group synchs JUST RIGHT, you are going to all die at least once. If anyone survives, it will be that hardy tank.

Pack a Bane Signet--many of these foes are undead. Judge's Insight does well also.

Pack a reuseable rez skill, because if anyone survives, it will be you. And you again. And guess what? You again. Rez by suicide is not the way to go. Bring back your Monk primary first, and then HELP them. Foreign concept, I know, but it works. You can't do that with the One-Time-Only Rez Signet. Reuseable deus machinae are a good thing.

Healing Breeze or Heal Area, for when you're in the poisonous waters--this is about the only time I'll advocate the use of Heal Area, but it can really help a dying party in those waters. Just don't use Area in battle. The alternative is Healing Breeze, to counteract the poisonous waters. On the Monk, please, and let them heal everyone else. Healing Breeze also works as a quick heal against conditions in battle, but be greedy--use it on yourself. You're the tank, and the point is for everything to aggro you so that the casters can cast, the Monks can heal, and the squishies can generally do what it is that squishies do. If you die, the mobs attack them, and they die. And they can't resurrect anyone when they're dead.

Useful, also, is "Charge!" The Allied AoE 25% faster retreat skill, I call it. I'm sure they meant for you to charge in and not out of battle, but whatever works. If you're about to wipe and you can retreat, DO IT.

I'm not much of a stance/shout user; instead I go for attack skills in the remaining slots. For an axe warrior, Triple Chop from Factions (Wing, Three Blade) or its non-Elite cousin Cyclone Axe make decent PBAoE skills for when you're surrounded.

For sword, Pure Strike (which cannot be (either blocked or evaded, can't remember which) if you're not in a stance) and Sun and Moon Slash (first can't be blocked, second can't be evaded, another Factions) are I think some of the most powerful skills. Two attacks for the price and time of one? I'm all for it.

And about that? Take sword or axe. Hammer is a decent enough weapon, but there are times when it should be used, and certain builds for it. For general use, it's too slow, too variable in its damage, and you can't use a shield with it. Among sword and axe, sword is lower damage but more consistent, and with Wa/Mo, that's my pick. The best use of a Hammer, I feel, is in the hands of an Assassin primary with high Critical Strikes, who can make use of those high-end damage numbers, and moderate-to-high Shadow Arts so they can get out of the way quickly. This theory gave rise to the A/W Axe-assin build, and while I've yet to see one for hammer, I can feel it coming.

I feel that soloing and running with the Wa/Mo is beyond the scope of this discussion, but I will say that if one is a Warrior primary, this is one of the most effective profession combinations for those things.

Best of luck, good article! And don't forget the decent Wa/Mo's out there.

fig
Wa/Mo: Ariyuna Merdenve

yipchiu · Oct 06, 2006, 04:46 AM // 04:46

The last sentence of the guide :

If you die, don't spam "rez me!" a hundred time and don't blame the monk. Dying is your fault.

One day in Deep. I (monk healer) partner with a W/A (he is the leader of the pug team) in Room 1.

He instantly aggro the foes and just say "heal me" when we just enter Room 1 through portal. And then he always shout "heal", "heal", "heal", every second until he die.

After he died, he say "All players resigned, the monk is noob, need kick him out."

His health dropping rate is much faster than I heal, also I was knocked down many times in this room. He ran far from me to the frontline such that I must go to frontline to heal him.

In my experience
most warriors(not include guildmates) in PUG = rude+impolite+impatient

Perkunas · Oct 09, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Awesome Guide. I know a Wammo, well, actually a Wanger (W/R). Applies Posion and rushes head long into the fray. Usually right past the mob's tanks straight into the next group. In the Divinty Coast mission, the group was engaged in a nasty fight. I try my darndest to keep everyone alive. I try to throw Healing Breeze on Wanger, and next thing I know I am running down a path perpendicular to where we are fighting. Come to find out, 'he is so good', he left us to get to the next 'villager' and ran into a mob of ettins and got his butt kicked. Meanwhile, the rest of the group needs my attention, me being the only healer. I left him there, spamming, 'I am Dead'. We finished up the battle and after resing and healing the rest, I went to get him. He kept up his 'what were you doing?' spatter, to the point that I told him to shut up or I would leave him there. I have been in multiple missions with this person. When he sees me he will lip off at me. All I say is, 'Shut up, or I'll leave you there." He laughs and we do ok. But once in a while he forgets and ..........